NOTES: Lillias Fisher --
Sister of Agnes Fisher. Gov. of Tasmania gave her a gold watch.
"Lived c Lord Reudlesham + Lord North as housekeeper." In a
picture taken about 1887 she appears possibly about 50-60 years
old (a guess). If guess is correct then I'd say she was born ca.
1817-1827.
- Anne Tolmie letter found in Grammy's (Murial E. [Gregory] Sterner's)
boxes --
o Envelope front - stamped: LONDON S.W. AP 27 '96
Mrs. Tolmie
16 FitzClarence St.
Everton
Liverpool
o Envelope back - stamped: LIVERPOOL AP 27 '96
emblem : all blue; crown w/four jewels;
below, a ribbon with "FREDDIE"
o Letter, folded four times - (same blue emblem in header top)
________front________ ____next page-back____
Lady North begs to to offer his thanks to
thank Mrs. Tolmie for Mrs. Tolmie for same.
her letters with par-
ticulars of her dear 16 Arlington St.
Mrs. Fisher's death S.W.
Lady North had April 26th
only seen the notice
of it in the news-
paper -- Lord North
is very glad to have
the pictures of his
Father back + wishes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:
The following correspondence are excerpts from dialogues carried out
over the Usenet newsgroups "soc.genealogy.uk+ireland" and
"alt.genealogy" from Jan. 15 - Jan. 23, 1996. This was my attempt to
decipher who "Lord North" was - and subsequently - which out of *many*
"Lord North's" was the correct one.
Also realize that I had initially thought that the "Mrs. Fisher" in the
above letter was actually "Mr. Fisher" due to the peculiar handwriting
which made it difficult to decipher. Thus, the references to "Mr.
Fisher" in some of the below correspondence.
-Todd
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Phil M. Connolly -- Jan. 15, 1996 --
"According to COMPLETE PEERAGE, Lord North was William Henry John
North, Lord North (b. 1836 d. 1932). He married in 1858 Frederica
Cockrell, daughter of Richard Howe Cockrell, a captain in the Royal
Navy. She was born in 1839 and died in 1915. The fact that her name
was Frederica should explain the "Freddie" on the stationery."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Charles Ellison
In 1896 Lady North would have been Frederica, daughter of Commander
Richard Howe Cockerell RN and wife of William Henry John North, 11th
Baron North. Lord North's mother Susan was the grand daughter of
Frederick, 8th Lord North who was prime minister of Great Britain
from 1770 to 1781. She marr- ied Colonel Rt Hon John Sidney Doyle,
MP for Oxford 1852-1855. He changed his surname to North in 1838.
This was usual when marrying the heiress to a title.
The Norths do not appear to have had a residence in Liverpool.
Clearly Mr Fisher and possibly Mrs Tolmie had in her younger days
been in service with the Norths, as her sister had with the Rendleshams.
It would be interesting to find the newspaper notice of Mr Fishers
death. How about the Times?
I am sure they did live above the shop. You only need a table an oven
and a mixing bowl to have a bakery. As I said before I suspect they
offered the wedding cake in honour of the Duke of Edinburgh's wedding
rather than got a contract from the Tsar.
No Mrs Fisher didn't work for royalty. She may have worked for Lord
North who was not royalty. His grandfather was prime minister. There
is a big difference.
The levels of Peerage from top down are
Duke
Marquess
Earl
Viscount
Baron
... which is what your Lord North was. The 1996 edition of Whittakers
Almanac list 8 pages of real live Barons. At ca. 43 a page that makes
about 350 by my calculation .i.e. they retail at practically 2 a penny.
There even over 20 non-Royal Dukes
None of this bunch need to be royal. Royal is Kings and Queens and
Princes and Princesses
The prime ministerial Lord North was also Earl of Guildford but this
title did not descend to his daughter.
Lord Rendlesham was also a humble Baron
Yes I did mean the 'London' Times to find the death notice. If the
Fishers were proud of their associations with the Aristocracy they may
have put a notice in the top people's paper. If Lord North read it it
wouldn't have been in a local rag. I am not sure if the CD of Palmers
Index of the Times goes up to 1896. But there is a hard copy version.
Stephen Allberry
Library Systems Officer
London Borough of Hackney Libraries
Phone: 0181 442 5239
Fax: 0181 442 5233
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Lauper --
Todd, Further to my e-mail of yesterday, and having seen the response
on this subject from Stephen Allberry, I must agree that the Lord North
who married Frederica Cockerell seems to be the one you are looking for.
Bearing this in mind I found the obituary for him in The Times in the 8
April 1932 issue and found the following additional information on him:
Educated - Eton and Christ Church College, Oxford
Served in 1st Life Guards, Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars
later became Honorary Colonel of 4th Battalion, Oxfordshire &
Buckinghamshire Light Infantry. He was the High Steward of Banbury,
served as a county councillor for 20 years and was a very keen huntsman.
Nine years after his marriage to Frederica in 1858, they were received
into the Roman Catholic Church. His peerage was passed on to his only
surviving son, Colonel William Frederick John NORTH born in 1860, who
would have been 72 when his father died.
I did also have a look for a mention of the death of Mr Fisher in 1896,
but unfortunately found nothing.
Incidentally, Arlington Street, which was where the first letter was
addressed from is in Piccadilly and is next to the Ritz Hotel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Lauper
Todd, More info for you. The plot thickens! Are you sure that on the
front of the letter that it says "with particulars of her dear *Mr*
Fisher's death".
The reason I ask is that I had a look at Somerset House today for the
will of a Mr Fisher in 1895/96 and found nothing that looked promising.
However, and here's the good news, I did find an entry for the will of
Lillias Fisher which read as follows:
Miss Lillias Fisher of 222 High Street, Portobello died on 22 August
1895 at 16 Fitzclarence Street, Liverpool. Confirmation of James Russell,
grocer. Sealed London 19 December.
When I asked to look at the will they said that all "confirmations" are
housed in Edinburgh, Scotland. I must admit I haven't come across this
term before.
Why her will has gone there I don't know, unless she lived/worked for
quite some time in Scotland. Perhaps someone in Scotland will be kind
enough to look this one up for you. When I first saw her address as
being Portobello I was assuming that it was in London, as there is a
Portobello Road in London, but its possible that there may be a place
somewhere else (in Scotland, perhaps?) by this name.
Incidentally, I don't know if this has any relevance, but the other
Lord North I mentioned to you in my original e-mail, died in Elgin,
Scotland on 12 October 1913.
Anyway, I shall have another look in The Times index for 1895 to see
if there is any mention of Lillias Fisher's death, as previously I had
only looked in 1896.
I'll let you know what I find.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Lauper
Todd, Unfortunately I couldn't find any mention of Lillias Fisher's
death in The Times in 1895, so you'll have to rely on someone finding
her will for you in Edinburgh.
Normally, if there is an entry in the registers at Somerset House, it
means that the will is also there and you can either read it for a fee
of 25p, or get a copy at 25p per page. But unfortunately this isn't
the case with this one!
In answer to your other queries, Mr Russell, the grocer, must have
been a friend of Lillias Fisher in Scotland to have confirmed her
death. I say Scotland, as Portobello is, in fact, in Edinburgh, not in
London as I mentioned to you might be the case yesterday. Maybe this
is where the Duke of Edinburgh connection comes from? In fact, the
whole family may have originated from Scotland, when you look at the
fact that the bakery is called the "Glasgow Bakery".
I think that you may well be right about the term "Sealed 19 December"
as meaning "will probated on" but someone in Scotland is probably
better placed to answer this one.
I did find out one piece of information today though while I was at
St Catherine's House, which is where the birth, marriage and death
certificates are kept, and this was that Lillias Fisher was 77 years
old when she died in 1895, putting her year of birth at either 1817 or
1818. However, and this is the strange part, the place of death is given
as West Derby, which is about 60 miles from Liverpool! Maybe she was in
hospital there? If you want, I can order the death certificate for you
next time I'm there on Thursday (they cost #6).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John E. Wynn
In the meantime, whilst your saving the pennies, why not write to the
man who may be able to answer all your questions :) Lord North = Earl
of Guilford. The eldest son is usually Lord North until father dies,
when *he* becomes Earl and *his* son becomes Lord North. Well, some-
thing like that :)
I'm sure that the Earl will have extensive family archives, and prob-
ably someone who "looks after" the records. Why not just write and
ask :)
The address is listed in the phone book as:
Earl of Guilford
Home Farm House
Waldershare Park
Dover
CT15 5BA
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:30:59 +0000
From: Keith I. Bulley
Subject: Re: Lord NORTH
I went to my local library yesterday and came to the conclusion that
there may have been two Lord Norths at the period you were interested
in, both of whom were descended from the Prime Minister, Frederick
NORTH, who helped us to lose the American Colonies.
Frederick NORTH's father, the 7th Baron North, was created Earl of
Guilford in 1752, Frederick being the eldest son being accorded the
'courtesy title' of Baron North (his father still holding the
'substantive' title).
All earls, viscounts and barons have titles prefixed by 'Lord' (I'm
not sure about Dukes).
On his father's death in 1790, Frederick became 2nd Earl of Guilford
and 8th Baron North.
He was succeeded by George Augustus NORTH, 3rd Earl and 9th Baron.
His heir was his daughter Susan (1797-1884) who was able to succeed
to the Barony of North on her father's death in 1841 and hence became
Baroness (Lady) North but, being female, was ineligible to succeed to
the Earldom of Guilford which passed to another branch of the family.
Her son William Henry John NORTH (his father having assumed the name
NORTH) became 11th Baron North in 1884 and died in 1932, having mar-
ried Frederica Cockerell.
[I'm not sure why there wasn't a 10th Baron - marriage did not give
the 11th Baron's father the right to any title; perhaps a place is
always left in the sequence for a female succession?]
In the meantime, the Earl of Guilford's heirs had retained the cour-
tesy title of Lord North and there were therefore at different peri-
ods TWO Lord Norths.
The courtesy title was held by the 7th Earl's eldest son who died in
infancy and may then have been accorded to the second son, Frederick
George NORTH (b. 1876), who later became the 8th Earl of GUILFORD in
1885. He married Mary Violet PAWSON.
So, to summarise, there were two Baron (Lord) NORTHs - one held a
'substantive' title and the other a 'courtesy' title.
I lost the details of the dates you were interested in but I would
guess that the substantive Baron NORTH is the most likely of the two.
Somewhat confusingly, Lady (Frederica) NORTH and Lord (Frederick
George) NORTH could both have been called Freddie!
Unfortunately, the substantive title seems to have become extinct.
The only Lord North listed is the son of the Earl of Guilford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Compiled by:
Todd L. Sherman/KB4MHH
afn09444@afn.org
01/23/1996